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1 Randall Gross  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 6:41:40am

They can vote, but they can’t drive, how screwed up is that?

2 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 6:56:50am

Hm, a Saudi national writing propaganda platitudes in praise of Saudi politics in a Saudi owned newspaper. Surprise!

He writes about “women’s political participation” but fails to inform what this participation actually is and how it will effectively mean in terms of changing the legal structure of the land. Hint: nothing, since all laws are passed by the King who is only somewhat kept in check by the clergy. He talks about the Shura but fails to mention that its role is purely “advisory”. So in terms of political participation, it’s one step above from STFU. The womenfolk may now join the men in empty banter.

That author seems a weird dude, too. Two weeks ago, he published this article in Al-Arabiya titled “Israel is stealing the Egyptian revolution”. And then there is this story published by Reporters Without Borders seems to imply: en.rsf.org

3 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 7:00:24am

re: #1 Thanos

They can vote, but they can’t drive, how screwed up is that?

Just more proof how much of a sham this is for all practical purposes.

4 wrenchwench  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 9:21:48am

re: #1 Thanos

They can vote, but they can’t drive, how screwed up is that?

Especially since you have to show a drivers license to vote.

/

5 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 9:27:50am

re: #2 000G

re: #3 000G

Since no one but the Saudi King can pass or enforce laws and you seem to be focused on practical purposes and current realities on the ground, let me ask you a few questions:

What sort of law do you think he should pass WRT women, and what consequences do you think he might face from the religious class and from Saudi society in general, which is extremely patriarchal and very conservative?

If the changes went beyond what Saudi society was ready/willing to accept, is it possible that there could be a backlash—possibly even a violent one—not only against the King, but also against Saudi women? Would anyone be able to intervene if that happened? If so who, and could it trigger wider regional upheaval?

What sort of bureaucratic changes might need to be in place for whatever you envision to become a practical reality? Here’s a snippet from an article from a woman whose skepticism is more in line with yours (added emphasis mine):

Saudi Arabia’s slow progress on women’s rights
There seems to be a pattern in which women’s rights are granted in principle but never in practice

[…] Officials have had six years to get ready but when the advisory Shura council recommended to the king this month that the ban be lifted it was too late to do so this year. It would seem that separate polling stations for men and women remained a problem.

This is something often seen in the Kingdom with regards to women’s rights: a promise and an expression of goodwill scuppered due to bureaucracy. There is no law prohibiting women from driving, for example, but an administrative vacuum makes it impossible to get a driving licence or register to drive. “We are not ready” is the refrain often heard from those in authority.

Yet in the end, she says:

This is the first time the king has made an overt promise regarding women’s participation in politics, and it is encouraging that the issue is being discussed. But there remains a concern that the pattern will continue, in which women’s rights appear to have been granted in principle but never in practice.

I remain cautiously optimistic and thankful to reine for bringing the news of the changes it to my attention.

6 reine.de.tout  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 9:53:27am

re: #5 CuriousLurker


CL, you are always such a breath of fresh air! I too, remain cautiously optimistic that this first step, this first baby step, is the first of many more to come, that will expand the rights of women in Saudi Arabia and similar nations.

I posted THIS article, in addition to the one yesterday, because I thought it was interesting to see another viewpoint.

I swear - I thought it was conservatives who were supposed to be the whiny-ass naysayers?

pfft. Between the “IT’S ALL A SCAM” comments on the other thread, and this one, I’m not so damned sure.

7 laZardo  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 10:12:17am
However, when a country with Saudi’s religious stature takes such a historic step ─ after consulting with religious scholars ─ it opens the door for women’s political participation in an unprecedented way and makes it very hard for Islamist parties to argue otherwise.

In other words, they’re doing it to spite Iran.

/partial

8 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 12:10:11pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

Heh, well, I’m just trying to approach the story in what I think is the most realistic way. Saudi Arabia is a completely different world than anything most of us here are even remotely familiar with, myself included.

To me, this means that what constitutes important change in the context of modern, open, Western societies is likely to be quite different than what constitutes important change in the context of a place like Saudi Arabia. Expecting change to happen there at the same speed and in the same manner as it has/does in the West—and sneering at tiny incremental changes that are made because we don’t feel they’re up to par—is folly, IMO.

But, hey, I could be wrong. Maybe King Abdullah can simply proclaim, “Okay, women now have full equal rights and can do as they please. Let’s party!” and everything will be hunky dory. //

Anyway, the following article from 2008 sheds a little more light on the subject: Saudi Women’s Rights (PDF).

There’s also this recent thesis (PDF) which is an ethnographic study of women‘s sexual health care in SA that necessarily touches on social norms and the empowerment of women.

This article at Saudi Aramco World gives some background on the founder of Saudi Arabia, Abdul-Aziz, and the al-Saud family. It also describes (rather rosily) the origins of the alliance between the al-Sauds & Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, as well as the the establishment of the earlier first (1744) and second Saudi (1824) states. The the current state, established in 1932, is the third.

9 reine.de.tout  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 12:26:24pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

Heh, well, I’m just trying to approach the story in what I think is the most realistic way. Saudi Arabia is a completely different world than anything most of us here are even remotely familiar with, myself included.

To me, this means that what constitutes important change in the context of modern, open, Western societies is likely to be quite different than what constitutes important change in the context of a place like Saudi Arabia. Expecting change to happen there at the same speed and in the same manner as it has/does in the West—and sneering at tiny incremental changes that are made because we don’t feel they’re up to par—is folly, IMO.

But, hey, I could be wrong. Maybe King Abdullah can simply proclaim, “Okay, women now have full equal rights and can do as they please. Let’s party!” and everything will be hunky dory. //

Anyway, the following article from 2008 sheds a little more light on the subject: Saudi Women’s Rights (PDF).

There’s also this recent thesis (PDF) which is an ethnographic study of women‘s sexual health care in SA that necessarily touches on social norms and the empowerment of women.

This article at Saudi Aramco World gives some background on the founder of Saudi Arabia, Abdul-Aziz, and the al-Saud family. It also describes (rather rosily) the origins of the alliance between the al-Sauds & Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, as well as the the establishment of the earlier first (1744) and second Saudi (1824) states. The the current state, established in 1932, is the third.

Thanks for the info.
And a million updings, if I could.

10 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 26, 2011 12:30:27pm

re: #9 reine.de.tout

You’re welcome. Yikes, it’s 3:30 already! O_o

I seriously have to get back to work now. BBL

11 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:34:01am

Saudi Woman Driver Sentenced to Lash After King Grants Vote

Sept. 28 (Bloomberg) — Two days after Saudi King Abdullah’s decision to allow women to participate in elections, two Saudi women were punished for breaking the ban on female driving: One was sentenced to 10 lashes by a court in Jeddah and another was detained in Riyadh.

The incidents highlight the continuing disparity between the rights of men and women in the kingdom. Women may be able to vote and run in the 2015 municipal elections, but they still can’t drive, argue in court before a judge, travel or get an education or a job without male approval.

businessweek.com

I am sure the impact of the lashes will be softened by the meaningfulness of the King’s symbolic actions. ////

12 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:38:16am

re: #5 CuriousLurker

re: #3 000GWhat sort of law do you think he should pass WRT women, and what consequences do you think he might face from the religious class and from Saudi society in general, which is extremely patriarchal and very conservative?

I think anyone who expects anything good to come from the House of Saud in terms of democracy is an utter fool.

There is no alternative to the fall of Saudi Arabia as we know it in order for the people to be truly free.

If the changes went beyond what Saudi society was ready/willing to accept, is it possible that there could be a backlash—possibly even a violent one—not only against the King, but also against Saudi women? Would anyone be able to intervene if that happened? If so who, and could it trigger wider regional upheaval?

Yknow, all of these things could have also been said as warning against the Civil Rights Movement in the USA, before it succeeded.

13 CuriousLurker  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 8:19:17am

re: #11 000G

Saudi Woman Driver Sentenced to Lash After King Grants Vote

[Link: www.businessweek.com…]

I am sure the impact of the lashes will be softened by the meaningfulness of the King’s symbolic actions. ///

Well, gosh, thanks for posting that! None of the rest of us follow world news, so we were under the impression there were no other problems in SA. If you hadn’t set us straight, we’d surely have continued our childlike belief that the King’s actions were the equivalent of magic fairy dust. //

re: #12 000G

I think anyone who expects anything good to come from the House of Saud in terms of democracy is an utter fool.

Okay, all those hopeful Saudi women are fools then.

Pffft—I mean, really—what the hell do they know about their own situation? //

There is no alternative to the fall of Saudi Arabia as we know it in order for the people to be truly free.

Now there’s an idea. Who do you suppose will lead the charge in bringing it down? How will they go about forming their new democracy given how conservative their culture is? How will the U.S. react when the monarchy we’ve supported for decades is brought down and the price of Saudi oil is suddenly a big question mark?

Yknow, all of these things could have also been said as warning against the Civil Rights Movement in the USA, before it succeeded.

Yeah, they could—if the situations were equivalent. They’re not. Nice try though.

Is it possible for us to have a civil conversation about this, or do you want to continue with the snark & straw men? I can do both just as well as anyone, but I don’t find them particularly enjoyable and I don’t give a shit about winning or losing arguments, so if that’s all you’ve got then I’m done here.


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